Ep 180 Conversation with Trauma Informed Expert and Coach Lindsay Poelman
Today I have a treat for you as I share a recent conversation with Trauma Informed Expert and Coach Lindsay Poelman. This year my word of the year is power – and this podcast is with a powerful woman and on a powerful topic. Listen in today as we talk about the power of healing, changing relationships, and changing your life – once you know more about this topic.
In This Episode:
- Trauma in the medical field and corporate world
- Concepts of “Big T” and “Little T”
- Oprah and Dr. Bruce Perry – What Happened to You?
- Trauma responses
- Playing small and not achieving your highest level of success
- Awareness of trauma
- Free Download: www.michellebourquecoaching.com/trauma
- Lindsay Poelman: https://www.lindsaypoelmancoaching.com
- Lindsay on IG: @lindsaypoelmancoaching
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You are listening to the it’s your time podcast and I’m your host certified life coach Michelle Arnold Burke, and today’s episode, I’m sharing a recent conversation with trauma informed expert and coach Lindsay Pullman. Welcome to the richer time podcasts, the podcasts were busy professionals like you get the practical solutions and support you need to gain control of your schedule so you can strive to be the best in your career, but without the stress and overwhelm. If you’re looking to increase your energy and decrease your stress, you are in the right place. Hello, hello, hello, welcome back to the podcast friends. Here we are at episode 180. And do I have a treat for you today? Today, I am sharing a recent conversation that I had with trauma informed expert Lindsay Pullman. She is also a life coach and business owner. And as you know, Every 10th episode, I love to share a mentor or a book or an interview. And this year, my word of the year is power. And this podcast is with a powerful woman and on a powerful topic. And it’s so important. And I hear more folks talking about it these days. So I wanted to be sure you had some insight on it as well. Now, you might at first think why is this the topic today. But the truth is, being trauma informed, even at a foundational level can truly help you make changes in your life. Or maybe simply allow you to see things that are going on around you in a different way. And maybe shed some insight as to where it might all come from, or honestly maybe even help with some relationships in your life personal or professional. And I’ve been learning more about this, I would say over the past year or so. And I recently read a book. What happened to you by Oprah and Dr. Bruce Perry, and I think I’ve mentioned it before here on the podcast. And it really made sense, I highly recommend you check it out, if you like what Lindsey is talking about if something seems to resonate, because the question is what happened to you versus what is wrong with you. And there are just so many layers. And today, I just want us to be able to start the conversation, to begin opening up avenues of discussion in order to maybe heal and help more folks along the way. Now, you know, I like to set these episodes up as if you’re just listening in on two women chatting so I don’t go back and really edit the conversation. It’s like we’re all just here together. And you are listening in. So without further ado, please enjoy the chat with Lindsey. Thank you so much for being here. I am so excited to talk about this because I do think it’s a super important topic. But before we get into the podcast, can you just tell everyone a little bit about yourself your story who you help what you’re doing and why you do it all the goodness? Unknown Speaker 3:41 Yes. Hello, everyone. My name is Lindsay Pullman and I’m a certified life coach. I used to work in public accounting and also in derivative accounting. And basically had a pre midlife crisis. My husband had his pre midlife crisis, which wrought upon my pre midlife crisis, basically, he had a kind of a mental breakdown. I mean, some people I think on the surface, it’s really fascinating. Some people might have looked at it as like a burnout type thing. He was working as a dentist and whatnot. And on the surface at the time, it just kind of like he was kind of physically running himself into the ground. But then, as we got things more stabilized and whatnot, we realized there was like there was a lot of deeper stuff happening. Not only was there anxiety and depression, but there was childhood trauma and a bunch of stuff to work through. And so as we got him more stabilized, I just became very fascinated about trauma and also my own trauma that I went through with respect to his experience, which some people might be like, What are you talking about, like he’s the one that had the mental breakdown. But at the time, because this was about six and a half years ago, Michelle, and at the time, there just weren’t resources available for spouses of people with mental illness. Like there just wasn’t a lot There wasn’t a lot of resources for, you know, spouses of people who like have addictive behavior as well. And so I felt like I found myself kind of clamoring, trying to find help wherever I could. And I did find a really good therapist who helped me with a lot of processing and grief work and things like that. But then I just remember, a lot of professionals telling me like, like, this is it like, this is always gonna be thing. This is just, you know, like, for what, for whatever reason, this is kind of just how it’s gonna be. And I just remember being like, there has to be more like, I don’t think life is meant to be this space have like apathetic acceptance. And so I remember just being like, there has to be more and then that’s when I found a friend led me to coaching. And I got really turned on by it, and that certified and obviously have continued to be really fascinated by trauma. And now I coach, I coach coaches, coach coaches, on how do I say that I trained coaches to be trauma informed. And I have kind of a relationship. I’ve kind of niched into like relationship trauma training for coaches, because based at the root of a lot of things is just usually a relationship, even if it’s with, like, with an organization and institution, and experience with money and things like that. And so a lot of stuff in our lives is relationships, even if we don’t know it. And so that’s kind of how I’ve gotten here. I also I started out coaching women whose husband looked at porn, because there’s a lot of betrayal trauma there for people in high demand, Christian religions, or high demand religions. And so I’ve kind of been doing trauma work for years, but then I just saw the need for, I guess what I saw from there, it’s just the need for all humans to be trauma informed, so that we can approach whatever aspect of our lives whether we’re like, you know, in a focus healing space, or just, you know, interacting with people who need to heal, just knowing how to approach all different dynamics in relationships, personally, professionally, spiritually, all the things. Yeah. And Michelle Bourque 7:07 that’s interesting, because before we started recording, we were talking about how sometimes people start with you thinking it’s one relationship, but then through the work realize that it was something totally different. Unknown Speaker 7:18 Totally. The stuff I’m working through right now, Michelle, I feel like a little bit a little blindsided. Mm hmm. And it’s nothing like, you know, I think when you when we normalize trauma, and we normalize, you know, healing and just what our experience is meant to look like, it’s not like this big huge deal. There’s usually just like deeper layers of stuff that come up. But it’s kind of fascinating, because some of the stuff I have been working through recently, it kind of like, started with physical symptoms. And so I started looking at some books to kind of see where the emotional potential emotional stuff could be, which might sound a little woowoo for some of your listeners. But anyway, yeah. Excited. Michelle Bourque 8:02 It is. And I want to talk more about normalizing trauma also. And yeah, when you speak about the listeners, I do want to kind of just speak to the importance, right, because oftentimes, people on this podcast are probably here to hear more about work life integration, time management habits, you know, sales numbers. So why do you think it is important that we’re talking about trauma here? Unknown Speaker 8:24 Okay, you such a good question, especially for people who are working a lot because, like one trauma response that I think a lot of people, so an interesting thing about, you know, trauma is like trauma responses are like usually pro social responses. And so it’s just kind of fascinating as you learn about that one of the pro social, and even like a glamorize trauma response is like becoming a workaholic. Right? No, Michelle Bourque 8:55 explain that a little bit more like pro social. What is that? Like for the social benefit of others? What do you mean? Unknown Speaker 9:01 Yeah, yeah. So like a pro. So pro social just means like, whatever your response is, it’s keeping you from doing whatever it is that maybe more being your more authentic self. They’re usually pro social responses, right? And so, you know, hundreds of years ago, women survived, which by keeping their mouth shut, right? Women survived by being chosen by a man. There’s so there’s a lot of like, there’s a lot of deep deep rooted conditioning. And I would say, even trauma, that’s a trait that kind of keeps us in these pro social trauma responses. And so an interesting it’s just kind of an interesting thing, too, because when you look at certain trauma, like behavior that comes from trauma responses, some of those behaviors are glamorized, and some aren’t Michelle Bourque 9:51 100% I would say in this environment, like the corporate world of device sales, especially, working a lot is totally glorious. Like you have a busy badge of honor, people are always talking about how busy they are. Unknown Speaker 10:05 Yeah, yeah, it’s total. I mean, that’s how it was for me when I worked in public accounting, it was like, you hit 90 hours, you’re like, respected, right? And then it’s like, but what is the cost? Like, what is that costing me? And you know, I think a lot of times some of the busyness is a way to just keep us from sitting and feeling and being in our bodies and letting ourselves like experience quiet. Michelle Bourque 10:30 And because that can be scary to like, wait, what, what’s all this noise here. And for some people, they don’t notice it till they like go to bed every night, because that’s the only time they’re getting peace of quiet. And then they notice it and then decide to take sleeping pills, so they don’t have to notice it. Right. And so it can kind of like promulgate that cycle of not listening, or looking or turning inward, to see what’s going on in your body. That and I think, too, when I first started in coaching, it was actually to help women drink less, right? Because I feel like at the end of the workday, if I’m not the way for me back then to like slow down was to have a glass of wine, right? And then that kind of numbs everything else. So I think there’s also people out there that will say that, like, I don’t want to have to sit and think about everything that went quote unquote, wrong during the day, right. So just have a glass of wine, or the sleeping pills or whatever it is. And to your point about the overworking. It’s so interesting. I was recently watching Alanis Morissette, she had a documentary on HBO Max, and she was talking about how when she was younger, and she would work until five in the morning, everyone would tell her how amazing that was. And she was so great. She said, if you think about it, if I told somebody I was up doing cocaine until five in the morning, like that would not be good. Right, like good glamorize working? Unknown Speaker 11:43 Yes. No, I think it’s so fascinating. And I don’t it’s, it’s fascinating, because too, I think, I saw a Saturday Night Live skit recently that basically was joking that like, you know, 2030 years ago, it was like cocaine, that helps them write the skits. And that was Adderall. Right? And it’s like, and it was like, it was a joke, but it’s also just like, okay, like, why are we glamorizing destroying our bodies at the expense of an organization, right, when ultimately like to keep the organization going, it we really do need to, like, you know, start unwinding and learning how to take care of ourselves. And so that’s why it’s been really awesome to see some of these like, feet, I don’t want to say just female or owned companies, but I’m just thinking of this one, specifically, my friend is interviewing to become like an editor for and it’s like this, you know, 30 hour a week job. And they’re just like, we know that you’re more productive. If you work 30 hours, and that’s it. That’s it. Right. And so I think, you know, what if we really think about quality and quantity for you know, versus like how busy we are, like, the the quality of work when after like hour, eight 910 1112. Now, it could just be worth something check for people to check in on I know, for me, working through the middle of night, I was making more mistakes, for sure. But right, maybe not everybody. Michelle Bourque 13:05 Right. But it’s just something to start paying attention to for sure. Yeah, I know, you talk about and I feel like I’ve been in the coaching world for just five years now. But I think it wasn’t until last year that I actually started learning more about trauma, paying attention. And you talk about big T and little T can you kind of talk a little bit about that and what that means. Yeah, it’s Unknown Speaker 13:25 a great question. So big T trauma is like, it’s the trauma that most people think of as trauma. So like a natural disaster, a war, big car accident, you know, world event type things like 911, all those things, that’s kind of like a big T event. And the little T traumas would normally just be considered. They’re just like little things that happen that chronic, like, chronic when something happens chronically over time, it can still be like the effects of little tea can actually be as much or bigger than that a Michelle Bourque 14:02 big tea. Do you have a little tea, Mike? Unknown Speaker 14:06 Yeah, so it’s really fascinating. And someone might be like, wait, what? No, I don’t. Are you sure about that? Like, so. And I remember the first time reading about this, like, Wow, that’s incredible. But like, so you know, little t could be like someone not making the basketball team in high school. Right? And you might just think, like, oh, yeah, that’s sad, but it should make the team but the thing is, is like the way that we’re wired the way that our brains work, yes, you don’t make the team but then what does that mean for you? And then what are you compounded with your belief systems over time about not making that team and and basically stuff can kind of build from there and so it’s not like to scare everybody and think like, oh crap, like, well, there’s no way to to eliminate this but it’s just I think just recognizing Like, when we can have those little experiences and just know how to process and work through them as we go, they don’t have to turn into these big bad things. Can I think like when people are approaching, you know, therapy or coaching, it also can be, I think it can just be helpful being like, recognizing that it’s okay to work through anything. And it’s not an indicator of like how strong or weak you are, because a lot of the belief systems, you know, for some reason, maybe that person not making the team reminded them of the time that you know, this other thing, you know, when their dad moved out as an alcoholic, and they were left alone or something like that, right. And so there’s lots of interconnections and things like that. But I think just recognizing like, there are little tiny things, but they’re, and they’re big things. But the effect of little T trauma not worked through can actually be equal to or greater than that of big T trauma, because we’re not emotionally letting the stuff letting the emotion or processing the trauma move through our body, so it can get compounded over time. Michelle Bourque 16:04 100%. And it’s so fascinating, because one of my questions, and I feel like sometimes when I have these conversations, I become more like, oh, it’s almost like this vulnerable, like, oh, wait, she’s touching on something, because I remember back when I like, and I’ve been coached on this before. So it’s kind of interesting. You say it not thinking it was a, you know, a little tea or anything, like not being you know, being picked last for gym class because I was affected or not being picked for cheerleading, right. But as you see the event, how does that then go back? I wonder if there’s something that has is in there from like, my biological mom, not like keeping us right. Like I grew up with my dad and my stepmom. So it’s so fascinating for people listening that you might not think it’s anything just as you started that answer, but really pay attention to that. Because how do you think that might show up? I guess in ways now. So for example, would that also lead to maybe playing small in the corporate real world not going for promotions? Not going like how do you see that that? Unknown Speaker 17:06 No, I mean, it’s a great question, right? Because if, if that is painful enough for you, you might not even apply for a promotion, because of the perceived pain that you might feel if you don’t get chosen. Right, or dating, dating, right? It’s like that if not getting chosen or not finding a you know, not finding whatever it’s like that perceived pain in your brain might actually feel worse, then the what it’s worth to potentially, like meet a life partner. Right? And so there’s so many different ways it can show up. And it does show up in different ways. And so, and it’s so varied and nuanced for each human. But I think just giving yourself compassion being like, what if it’s okay, that it was just really hard for me, because the part of the reason that like little tea, like the effects of it can get can be compounded is because of how we have been conditioned to treat people who are experiencing hard things, right, like, suck it up, you’ll be fine. It’s not that bad. At least you have this look at those people in this other country. You know, we’ve been conditioned to discount and like, suppress all of our emotions. And if we just like, let that let ourselves feel what comes up and let it feel incredibly hard and move through us, then we can just be more open to like, oh, okay, I can work through something hard. Which means even if I like apply for this motion, this promotion, and I don’t get it, I know I’m going to survive. Right. But when we don’t work through it, we actually like our lower Ray might not actually know that we can survive not getting a promotion. Right. Interesting. Yeah, we’re getting ghosted Michelle Bourque 18:45 or whatever. Yeah. And it goes back to again, right the relationship is, is with your job, or with the significant other, like when you’re using these examples, it’s right back to the core of what you said. And now you’ve also talked about therapy and coaching. Like where do you see trauma? I guess in those two avenues? Unknown Speaker 19:04 Yeah. Oh, it’s such a good question. Because here’s the thing, like, I think I think there’s a big, at least when I started coaching, the big thing was just like, you don’t take on clients carrying trauma, right? If you have clients carrying trauma, like you send them to a therapist, but the reality Michelle is that we’re kind of all just carrying trauma. So and the thing is, like, people don’t know they’re carrying trauma, when they reach out to a coach for help. And even sometimes with a therapist, right, they just know they want some help with things. And so to be able to, like, truly handpick clients who have zero trauma, like I don’t even know if that’s possible. And so the idea is like, what if we can have really good skills, really good tools and things like that to help you know, like a higher touch like more people, you know, specific types of things moving emotions through your body and, and you know, being able to tease out certain truths and things like that, but then also recognize that there is like a subset that we definitely want to have a doctor or a therapist on on the case for. So I have plenty of clients where, you know, anytime I take on a new client, I, when I was doing my one on one coaching, I would do an intake call. And if I could pick up on trauma from the intake, I would be very clear, like, I mean, if they were functioning, and if I could pick up on potential past trauma, then I would just be really clear, like, yes. And if it makes sense, we’ll bring someone else in, right? Like, are you seeing a psychiatrist right now? Are you seeing a therapist? You have a therapist? How often do you see her like that kind of stuff? And so, but I think the big thing is just like, the more that everyone can be educated about trauma, the more people will know where to go to get help. Right. So for me, I don’t think of it as a fail. If I think it might actually be really helpful for them to do some like integrative EMDR therapy, I actually think it’s a really great thing. And so I don’t know if that answers your question, but Michelle Bourque 21:06 yes, 100%. And I do think, for people listening, when you talk about like high functioning, I think there’s probably people listening today that are the busy people that are probably saying, I don’t have time, I don’t know what they’re talking about moving emotions, like, yeah, where would you have somebody like that start to even become aware, I guess, of maybe what a trauma response might be, or a trigger or like, even just to be able to crack open some light to like, recognizing trauma that might be within themselves? Unknown Speaker 21:37 Hmm, that’s such a good question. And actually before and even before that, like, I think that’s why you might find a lot of high functioning people go into coaches, for therapists, because they don’t think they have trauma, they just want help with like the time management and all the things and things and things they want to just they think if they can kind of like, work through all of these like problems, then then they won’t need, then they’ll be okay. And does these people need help, too? Right. But I would say you’re, I mean, I’m just thinking the best way, I think, if you like, if you’re just barely thinking about this, and you’re like, what, what does that mean? Like moving on emotions of your body like trauma response? I mean, I think if you just tried sitting quietly, for like, five minutes a day, or like when you’re driving, don’t turn anything on, for 510 minutes, just see what happens in your body. Michelle Bourque 22:31 That is such a great, that’s such a great tool, actually, because so many of these folks are on the road right there in their car. And so I know for for when for myself, when I first started, I always had a podcast done right. There was only something else going on in my brain except for me listening to myself. So I think that’s a perfect Unknown Speaker 22:47 opportunity. Yeah, and so I think that’s a great time to just kind of be like, wow, like, how uncomfortable is it for me to just like, sit with myself, because I used to, I remember, it used to be like that for me. And now I really enjoy, really enjoy quiet now. But it wasn’t always that way. So I think it’s a great place to start. And then if that is anxiety provoking for you, then you could definitely, you know, do some writing, see what’s there. Or, you know, you could reach out to people like Michelle, who would definitely have you know, even more information or specific questions to help help you get clear for yourself. Michelle Bourque 23:21 I think that’s so it’s funny, you say the five minutes when I’m talking to some folks, and they’re like, I don’t have time to meditate for two minutes or five minutes. I’m like, then you probably should do 10. Unknown Speaker 23:32 Yeah, well, and you actually bring up a really good point too, because like, the thing is, is like certain people can’t you know, every person is different with respect to like, what can invoke, like, what can be triggering. So for one person, like meditation can be their jam, like, oh my gosh, meditation, 10 minutes a day, everything for someone else meditation is like, can be very triggering. And so like having a coach who’s trauma informed, can help you find those grounding, connecting practices that work for you based on your nervous system, your specific needs and things like that. Oh, that Michelle Bourque 24:09 is such a great point. Because I think I do look towards because everything I joke about when I say you know people listening, it’s because that that was me listening, right? Like, those are my thoughts. I was like two minutes for meditating what but now, I’m at like, 3040 minutes. So, but that’s not for everyone. Because sometimes I do feel like I think like it could be so helpful, but maybe that’s not accurate for everybody. Unknown Speaker 24:32 Well, and that’s the fun thing, too, is like when you can find a coach who’s trauma informed or work with anyone who’s trauma informed. They it’s like most people recognize the nuance of humanity. So it’s like, we want to help people recognize that their own nuance like the power of their own nuance and so that they can use their intuition to see what works for them. Right. And I think sometimes when we get in these, like, you know, in the corporate world, it’s it can be very fun. focus on like, right or right, right or wrong, right or wrong numbers, numbers busy, you know, what’s busy, what’s not busy? And what if, like, what would it be like to just like, step back and start thinking about what’s behind all the things that you’re doing. So you can be even more clear about what you’re all in for. Or recognize that like, maybe my, you know, maybe I do need to make some little changes, maybe I do need to, like spend two minutes walking, you know, every morning or and you can serve so simple to it doesn’t have to be this, like, wake up tomorrow and like, become like a yogi, you know? So Michelle Bourque 25:35 there’s a little in between room and Unknown Speaker 25:37 sure, yeah, like the, like radical change that we want comes from, like super tiny, tiny things compounded over time. And so it can literally be, you know, just extending the time between like, a stimulus and a response to stimulus being something that invokes like a, that can invoke a trigger. And like you just responding to something like anytime we’re just like stretching out that that moment is like interrupting like a think feel act cycle or a trauma response cycle. So Michelle Bourque 26:07 that’s good. I think you mentioned you know, numbers, I feel like in this industry, for sure, you know, It’s quarter to quarter right, your hero to zero and what have you done for me lately? Like, that’s kind of go go mentality, but to what you said earlier, like, how can you work in that atmosphere? But as more of your authentic self like, do you even know what that means? Unknown Speaker 26:28 Yeah, yeah. And like, let’s remember, we’re not robots. Right. And, and so I think sometimes when we look at growth and numbers, we get really linear. And our bodies aren’t linear, like the way our healing, like the way things happen, the way we experience life. Like we have wintering phases, we have cycles, where we actually do need to step back and just slow things down. And so but the thing is, is like when you can work with when you recognize that about yourself, and you can work with that, it doesn’t have to mean you have to just like, take two months of work off every year, but you can work with it and not judge or shame yourself. As these shifting things happen. It actually reminds me of this. I heard the story. And I, I’m pretty sure it’s true. But I’m just like today, there was a soccer there was like a soccer coach who worked with women. And like, I think it was a male soccer coach, I don’t know, male or female soccer coach, who was working with a women’s soccer team. And he started, like scheduling the types of workouts with their cycles, because I think they’re together so much. Their cycles were the same. Oh, interesting. So there were like certain stretches where they might do like maybe more yoga and certain parts where they do more sprinting and things like that. And they ended up like winning some championship of some sort. But it’s like, the more we just know ourselves, instead of getting into this, like robotic Busy, busy, busy number number number thing, like what if we can understand ourselves, understand our body understand what it means and trust, I know, this might sound like a big reach. But like develop the skill, or the mental, like, mental ability to trust that, like, you can still be really successful, and you can still be some you can be sustainably like successful, you know, Michelle Bourque 28:15 yes, I think that was one huge lesson for me. One of my coaches had said, you know, you need to slow down in order to speed up, and I felt my heart rates when she was talking about, like, what do you have to slow down, but it’s everything because you’ve become so much more intentional, not only in your job, but in your life. Unknown Speaker 28:35 Mm hmm. Yeah. And it matters. And it’s fun. I mean, it’s always fun to hear those like victory stories, like the soccer team figured it out, and then they, and they want a championship, right? And I think just getting just based where whatever matters for you is what you’re getting to even if like, externally it hasn’t been you don’t see it. Yeah, cuz I think sometimes we get so focused like, on wanting immediate external validation or external like proof that what we’re doing on the inside is working. And it’s not always exactly that way as you’re kind of learning to switch this up. But it’s definitely available. Definitely possible and, and there’s just so many different ways to like, start looking at you yourself what you need. I mean, to me, it’s everything. Michelle Bourque 29:21 And actually what matters, right? Like what matters to me. I think so many women don’t even give themselves the time to think about that question. Oh Unknown Speaker 29:30 my gosh, yeah. Like that’s one of the when I used to do my one on one coaching as one of the earlier questions, I would ask people like, you know, just when they would reach out like, yes, like, what is it that you need? And they were like, I don’t know what me Michelle Bourque 29:45 I laughing because when Caryn who we both know asked me that I was like, that seems like a really tough question. Unknown Speaker 29:54 Ah, ah, and that’s been and that’s the thing too is like, that’s been totally really conditioned out of us to like, think about what we want what we need. And the thing is, is I do believe that as women, and I don’t know if most of your audience is women or men, but I’ll say women are men like us figuring out what our unique gifts are. And putting that into the world like, is the thing that the world needs if you didn’t want to focus on what the world needs, but I think like just being willing to, like, look inward and see what you need, what lights you up, like, what, what is going to help you sustainably do what it is that you want to do every day like it really, really does matter. Because we need like, I mean, I guess just from like a male female perspective, we need women, like, putting forth stuff to and like putting forth their most unique divine gifts to and being seen being willing to be seen. And we need that for men as well. But I think a lot of times, we’ve just been so conditioned to be so busy. We’re not even thinking about how powerful we are, you know, Michelle Bourque 31:00 100%, and you’re talking about conditioning, I also want to make sure we go back to normalizing and kind of as we’re unlearning learning, and I recently read that book, I think speaking of normalizing Oprah, right, like everybody knows Oh, yeah, almost, I would think everyone, but I look with Dr. Perry, what happened to you? And so I feel like maybe that also was another avenue for me to be like, Oh, wait, maybe it’s also here and here and here. Like, what are your thoughts around normalizing? Like, what, what does that mean? And I guess, what would you suggest for folks to do in order to be more open to normalizing it unlearning, maybe what it is that? Unknown Speaker 31:43 Yeah, I mean, I just think like, individually, we’ve kind of been taught that, like, if we’re not getting, you know, if we’re not hitting numbers, if we’re not doing anything, that there’s something wrong with us, right? What’s wrong with you? And I love that book so much. Because the premises like, why are we when when kids are when foster kids are coming in, you know, into like, these therapists office and whatnot, what if it’s not like, What’s wrong with him, like what happened? And what happened, right? The reason that we are who we are today, the reason that we show up in the way that we do, or we don’t show up in the way that we want to, comes from so many internalized experiences that we had from like, like, literally the womb, but like childhood stuff, we’ve ended up like internalized from the external environment, all the things and so we’ve all just internalized so much. And our brain interprets that in a certain way, so that we show up in a certain way. And so I think when we just recognize that, like, the stuff that comes to our consciousness and to the surface, like, it’s all normal, and if we’re carrying stuff, it’s normal, like everything that you’re saying, or thinking is totally okay, and, and I think just helping people see is like, if you’re just barely starting to think about this stuff, like really making it clear that like, you aren’t your thoughts and feelings, because sometimes when we start letting the thoughts come up, there’s just like a huge shame storm. And so just know, like, a lot of the stuff that is coming up is stuff that we internalize, when we didn’t even know we had a choice to be like, I don’t want to buy into that body shame business, like no, I don’t think so. I’m gonna say no to that. We didn’t know we could do that when we are kids are teenagers. And so anything that is coming up with respect to how we judge ourselves or judge others, like, as you slow down and stuff comes up, just let it be okay. You just get to be this curious observer, like, Okay, this is here, I don’t like it. How can I just like, see that it makes sense that it’s here, so that I can work with it and decide what I want to discard or keep, or prune or nourish or whatnot. But, I mean, reality is we’re just we are all humans, we’ve all experienced trauma to some degree. And the more that we can normalize that, the more we can show up personally and professionally to support people doing the same things, or people who have experienced trauma as well. And so it like, makes, it just makes a difference. You know, like when you are, whether you’re like a CEO, like I think you would have I think we’d have so much more understanding for employees that are going through things or why people are late all the time, or, or whatnot, versus, you know, if you’re trauma informed versus like if you’re not trauma informed, right. And, and I’ll just say personally, like when I was going through all my stuff with my husband, because, you know, he’d been lying to me about his his porn use. And then he told me about it. And then he suddenly stopped working. And then he had all this childhood trauma that he was working through. I he had to stop working. So all this stuff is happening. He’s realized he’s been like, sexually abused. He’s totally non functioning. I had like a four year old, a two year old and a baby. And then I had to start working again. And my employers like, like, shell X was in The fog like it was a really nice distraction. But it was still pretty foggy. And I remember getting through like a really horrible tax season. And just like, you know, I would I feel like I got probably pretty average, like, what does it like average reviews, but average to a perfectionist sucks. And so I got, you know, average maybe like a little bit above average reviews or whatever but to me it totally sucked. But I, you know, and I actually ended up needing to take a three month sabbatical just to be with my kids, because I hadn’t seen him for so long, like seeing them a lot as much as I wanted to. But like the way those partners like, worked with me, like, I will never forget that. Like, it wasn’t like, whoa, you have a lot of stuff happening. I mean, just kind of figure it out. Like they were like, Oh, wow, you have a lot going on. Like, let’s give you a sabbatical, we’re gonna treat it as a maternity leave, like, go take care of herself. Like that stuff matters. And for me, I’m like, okay, like, you guys will be my clients again someday. Because they care about their people. And like, you know, what they’re actually going through and it like, was just really touching to me, especially coming from like, that was in public accounting. It was a, it was a regional public accounting firm. My first one was like a big four. But this regional one, like the specific partners I had, like, Michelle Bourque 36:26 I just remember, I’m just like, forever grateful, because that stuff really matters. And I think it’s because of, you know, whatever experiences they have gone through had not gone through, or just their understanding of actual real humans and how to treat them just made a really, really big difference. Yeah. And it sounds like, the normalizing is not just within ourselves to normalize that it’s okay, but normalizing it. So the way we interact with others, is what you’re saying also, right? It’s for ourselves and for Unknown Speaker 36:54 others. Yeah, so you can support people, and then if someone is like, blowing up at you at the grocery store, do we blow up back? Or do we just like, wow, something like, this response isn’t like the relationship of this response versus like, this reaction versus what happened, like, something’s off there. Of course, we set boundaries, like, and that’s the thing too, like, the more we are trauma informed, we can set really appropriate boundaries. But we can also not take it on, like, take stuff on. Right. And so for me, that’s another thing too, like, I’m really clear with my kids, like, what’s theirs? What’s mine? You know, if I overreact, it’s not because of them, right? Like, I just think it can be, it can really matter in those situations, too, and how we treat peers and, and, you know, there are a lot of doctors who, like there are people who are carrying trauma, to go to doctors for help. And the doctors, you know, they’re so niched into wherever they are, that they actually don’t, aren’t always aware that like, you know, that this past trauma could actually be affecting their, like irritable bowel syndrome or whatnot. Right? And so Oh, yes, more, when you can find trauma informed doctors, it really makes a difference. Like my husband had, like a neurologist who was trauma informed, that really helped him get like the right books, the right reading, and things like that, to see the stress and all everything behind it versus just like, Oh, you’re not sleeping, here’s some pills. Right? And so it makes a difference, like, everywhere you go, 100%, I see that, and this could be a whole rabbit hole that I won’t go down. But I feel like even with my patients, right, I work with patients. So that’s a lot of stuff that could be held in the body. Talking about that. Oh, my gosh, yeah. Like, there’s a ton of like, there’s so much research that proves that like a lot of autoimmune diseases. And like, I can’t remember if chronic pain is part of it. But like a lot of auto immune, fibromyalgia is usually linked to trauma. And, you know, even you know, some people might think, like, when I say the trauma that I went through with my husband was like, something I would call betrayal, trauma. And a lot of people, especially like new, like newer coaches, or people who aren’t trauma informed, they might be like, What are you talking about, like, you’re traumatized, because of what like, that just seems so little. But like, there’s a lot of research that shows that like, a lot of women who have experienced betrayal, trauma to some respect, have like auto immune stuff. So if you’re an auto immune doctor, like how impactful could it be, if you recognize that so that they can also be getting like psychological help that they need, while you’re treating them? You know? Yes, there’s Michelle Bourque 39:31 so much that is so good, because I feel like, Yeah, this is just like the tip of the surface of all of the information that you have. I love that you’re talking about just becoming aware of it to be able to start pruning, right past trauma that maybe you didn’t even realize you had to step more into your power and to be able to show up in a bigger way, which is the ripple effect, right. I always talk about the ripple effect we have here and I think that seems like such a good place to kind of Bring it back to is just having given yourself the time it sounds like you’re talking about grace, compassion, courage, curiosity, to really get clear on how you want to show Unknown Speaker 40:13 up. Yeah, and I think, you know, like, show up in a way that lights you up, right? That’s, like exciting for you where you’re excited about waking up, you know, whatever it is that you’re waking up to, or waking up to do like that. I think we’re here to like, be in touch with ourselves enough to like, access our creativity and put that into the world. And when I say access our creativity, that doesn’t mean turn us all into artists, like it means people like you doing what you’re doing, right, and other people doing what they’re doing. Because we’re all just so unique and different, but I really, I really do think it matters. And I think people are ready for it. I really do. Michelle Bourque 40:53 I agree. Now, I love your quote before we started, what did you say? It’s fun to be alive right now? Unknown Speaker 40:58 Is that what I said something about that? Right? Like, what’s the point? If we are doing things, right? And if we like, can’t turn off at night? Like what if we need to, like, you know, what if we could treat ourselves in such a way and like work through whatever’s there. So that like, whatever our coping mechanisms are, or whatever we’re like, numbing out with at night becomes irrelevant. If we want it to become irrelevant, right? My husband always my husband helps men stop looking at porn and and they always says, like, learn to love your life so much that porn becomes irrelevant. And like, you know, it doesn’t. And I just like that idea that like, what if it’s, then it’s then when we have the wine? It’s just because we want a glass and we’re not trying to forget about everything. Michelle Bourque 41:45 Right? Yes. 100% Yes. And I love that we can talk about trauma and also talk about loving to live life and having fun, right? Yes. Can be and not or, Unknown Speaker 41:56 yes. And I think that’s like my big thing, too, is like I do a lot of this work with women. Like I’ve been doing it for four years. And it’s some people will look at me like, Oh, that’s so heavy. Like, how do you do that? The thing is, it’s like, people are walking away, lighter, and freer. Like we are, like, working through your trauma is freeing yourself. It really is. And it’s like helping people be free enough to let them their true selves be seen in the world. So and I don’t know if there’s anything more important than people being grounded and feeling safe enough to just let themselves be seen for who they are. Michelle Bourque 42:31 I was just gonna say we need more of that for sure for people to be seen as who they are. How can people find you like, where’s the best place to watch? Follow Connect? Oh, yeah, Unknown Speaker 42:42 I’ll think so I wanted to cram. I’m on Instagram as Lindsay Holman coaching, it’s P O E, l, ma n. And then I just have a web website, Lindsay Pullman coaching.com. So I do self advocacy groups for women frustrated with their husbands porn habits, porn use. I have a self advocacy masters that’s gonna come out like, later on this year for more, more of a broad self advocacy thing. But then I also train coaches, how to be more trauma informed. And then I do do like private one off stuff for like owner entrepreneurs or business owners who want to learn this stuff. Specific for their company to so Michelle Bourque 43:21 Okay, great. And I’ll put all the links in the notes. Yeah, thank you so much. This has been so informative. Unknown Speaker 43:29 It’s so wonderful to see you, Michelle. And I love the work that you’re doing. And that’s the thing. It’s like, if you guys are wondering, Where do I start? Start with Michelle. She knows what she’s doing. She’s got she knows, I think, yeah, I think you know, plenty to really help people dial into this for themselves, too, for sure. Michelle Bourque 43:47 Thank you so much for being here. Of course. Thanks, Michelle. Okay, how about a couple of those last quotes, do things that light you up? It’s fun to be alive right now. Such great thoughts. I’m totally taking them. And I think you should, too. There’s just so many facets to think about around this topic, maybe to add some empathy and compassion, perhaps in the world and your world, at least right for yourself. Now, I also want to let you know that Lindsay has given us a worksheet that she uses with coaches, for their clients. It’s called 10 signs, your client may be experiencing a trauma response, and she’s giving it to us, I think it’s a great tool to just look what some responses might be. Maybe for yourself or a family member or a team member or even a customer. I’m going to add the link in the notes. Now again, it’s geared towards coaches but honestly we can all learn from it so be sure to check it out. I will also have Lindsay’s links in the notes for you to be be able to learn so much more if you follow her Lindsey Pullman coaching on Instagram and then Lindsey Pullman coaching comm if you want to check out her website okay, that’s what I have for you today. Let’s circle back next week for now. Let yourself be seen and make it a great day. Take care